The collapse in U.S. home prices that stoked the worst recession since the Great Depression wasn’t quite as severe as initially estimated, according to data from S&P/Case-Shiller.
Property values nationally fell 26 percent from the February 2007 peak to the December 2011 trough, not 34 percent as previously reported, revised data showed last week. The index will now be issued monthly rather than quarterly.
The change is the result of CoreLogic Inc. (CLGX)’s $6 million purchase of the S&P/Case-Shiller index from technology company Fiserv Inc. in March 2013. Case-Shiller has spent more than a year retrofitting its model with CoreLogic’s bigger, higher-quality data set, leading to a change in how the index looks.
There have already been a smattering of CV sales at or above peak pricing, and I said today that within two years the 92130 detached-home sales will be at or above 2006 prices:
Sept 2006: 32 sales, $370/sf.
Sept 2012: 43 sales, $326/sf.
Statistically, we’re only 13% apart in the numbers above, and we could make that up by the end of next summer. When the inferior homes are gaining steam that it really becomes apparently that prices are on the move. True, the house featured in today’s video hasn’t sold yet, but with only 22 resales listed under $1,000,000, it stands a decent chance of selling.
The same model two doors down from this one sold for $935,000 at the very peak, July, 2007.
The National Association of Realtors is in the midst of revising its core home price index. While the move may be a concern to some, fellow HPI service Zillow said it isn’t affected by the revisions.
“NAR’s rebenchmarking is not impacting Zillow at all,” said Zillow Chief Economist Stan Humphries. “We look at closed sales from public records. NAR is a survey. We’ve never used NAR’s numbers for our analytics.”
NAR is currently revising downward its index in what it labels a normal rebenchmarking process. Humphries said Zillow requires no such revisions and stands by his firm’s numbers.
The economist also denies the Zillow numbers, what it calls Zestimates, look at housing through rose-tinted glasses. Zillow calls May 2007 the peak of the housing boom. Since then prices collapsed 23.7%.
Other home price indices are more severe than Zillow’s. CoreLogic calls the peak in April 2006 and accounts for a 32% decline. Lender Processing Services calls the peak in June 2006, with a 30.2% decline.
While Jim the Realtor is on a well deserved and long overdue break he has foolishly handed the helm over to me. Rob Dawg.
When last we did this it was a different world. Think back to the halcyon days of 2007. A bucolic time when people were still discussing “if” there was a bubble and anyone predicting 10% declines was checked for drug abuse. We certainly have mostly burned off the excesses in normal residential housing. It still remains to see if the high end will join the rest. I’ve loved reading JtR getting an education about San Diego and lots of laughs in the process.
So, today’s question: Are there any more shoes to drop on Southern California? And please, not the old earthquake meme.
They exclude properties that were resold within six months, though the REOs being held longer than 6 months are going to be included. The “purchase price” recorded by the banks at the trustee sale, in almost all cases, will be quite a bit higher than the final sales price – their purchase price was based on appraisals almost a year prior to the eventaul REO sale.
The CSI also excludes those sales which they can’t find a previous purchase price, which will eliminate many of the long-time owners, and they also exclude new homes that were resold too.
The CSI also assigns ‘weights’ based on time between sales, but they said that 85% to 90% are unweighted. If they are downweighting the older ‘sales pairs’, there has to be some extra emphasis in the index on the more recent pairs.
Wouldn’t that make the index somewhat biased to the negative?
At last night’s panel discussion the question was asked,
“When will the Case-Shiller index hit bottom?”
Other panelists politely side-stepped the question, so I took the plunge. My last prediction was the infamous coffee bet from September, 2006, where I guessed that superior properties would hold up better, sliding only 10% in value, and inferior properties would get hammered 40% to 50% in value. The jury is still out on how far off that prediction will be.
Last night I said that the Case-Shiller index would bottom in December, 2011, and be 25% lower than it is today.
Today’s index is 148.25, about what it was in August, 2002.
Knock 25% off and it’ll be 111.19, or about what it was in February, 2001.
The highest reading was 250.34 in November, 2005, so the 111.19 reflects a 56% decline.
I don’t like making formal predictions, let alone ones off-the-cuff. What was going through my head in the 2-3 minutes preceding my statement?
Oceanside is the test case. The market has worked perfectly in Oceanside, and properties in any condition, and in any location, that are priced at 50% to 60% off are flying off the shelf.
Will the rest of San Diego County need to hit 50% off to reach bottom?
I don’t think so, but we’re talking about the Case-Shiller index.
If Oceanside is the example of what to expect elsewhere, then we’ll see a marketplace dominated by bank-involved sales. Instead of ‘giving their house away’, individual homeowners who are comfortable will find other alternative to selling, and the vast majority of the homes selling will be those that the homeowners can’t afford anymore.
It could cause sales to shrink in older neighborhoods, which could have a stabilizing affect on pricing. The neighborhoods I mentioned in the coffee bet are holding fairly well, though Davidson’s La Costa Oaks has a couple of short sales in the works.
The index measures the decline between the last two sales prices of the same house.
If the older neighborhoods have fewer sales, then the number of REO and short sales of homes built in 2004-2006 will probably be the determining factor of the Case-Shiller index. The newer McMansions loaded with HOA fees and Mello-Roos are in everybody cross-hairs, and it’s likely that we’ll see further price erosion for the next couple of years.
But the banks are squeezing the REOs out little by little, dragging out the inevitable. That’ll continue for another 3-4 years at least, but, just like in Oceanside today, there should be over-shoot, so by December 2011 the index might hit bottom.
There are enough buyers patiently waiting for the higher-end homes to drop, and the second half of equasion is how much lower will prices have to go to get them to step up. I think there is enough enthusiasm, plus the tempting low rates, that many buyers would be buy a home today if they could just find decent ones at 5% to 10% off. Because the Case-Shiller will be loaded up with bank-involved properties that were purchased in 2004-2006, I think it’ll read worse than it is, but that might be too optimistic.
That’s my justification of a wild guess last night, but who knows?
The Case-Shiller index has been going down 4-5 points per month lately. It only has to drop 37 points to be 25% less than it is today, so conceivably at this rate we could have a 25% decline in the index by early next year.
I’ll stick with the 25%, when it happens…..?
Here is a youtube of Rich answering the question, “What indicators do you watch?”
The other two neighborhoods I mentioned as “superior homes” to watch were Davidson’s Starboard tract in La Costa Oaks, and the old beach community, Terramar. How are they doing?
The number of sales have been low, and data scattered in both areas.
Here are the same-house sales in Starboard, listed in chronological order of their resale date, with the only three 2008 sales in bold:
Sales Price, New
Resale Price, Date
$1.007, 11/07 REO
$900K, 6/08 REO
The second REO sale had listed for $849,000, and the agent already had the buyer standing by at $900,000 – it went pending the first day, and could have sold for more.
There is an active short-sale listing of a 3,743sf plan, listed on the range $949,000 to $1,049,000, and a PENDING 4,398sf plan, listed for $1,549,000 to $1,649,000.
I think this is going to be typical in the prime areas from now on – lower short-sale or REO listings closing under the trend, interspersed with primo listings going for top dollar. The future sales depend on how many homeowners can’t hang on – about half of them had equity in the 0-20% range.
Terramar has been beating the odds.
In May of this year, there were three different 1,500sf houses sell in the $800,000s on El Arbol and Los Robles, similar to sales in 2005.
There have been two shockers lately too.
The nutty 1,399sf house with a studio over the garage on the non-oceanfront side of Shore Drive closed for $1,600,000 cash to an Arizona buyer. It had sold in 2002 for $750,000.
And the 2,760sf house at 5390 Los Robles closed at $1,225,000 to a buyer from Simi Valley on 9/4/08. I had it listed for $349,000 in 1995 and couldn’t sell it – everyone thought I was crazy. The owner finally did get lucky and sold it for $762,500 in August, 2003.
The fewer sales in both areas help illustrate the difficulty for buyers looking for prime properties – do you keep waiting for lower prices, or take your shot when you have it, because of the few choices available?
I said that ‘superior homes’ might only lose 5-10% of their value, but inferior homes were likely to get clobbered, losing 40% to 50%, resulting in a combined blended loss of 33% in median home price.
Here was the justification:
Three general reasons the high-quality properties will do better:
1. They’re older houses, owned by older people, with less debt.
2. They have it so good, there’s no better place to go.
3. Buyers are holding out for the good stuff.
Because of these three reasons, the supply-and-demand curve is much more healthy in the high-quality-home market.
I was vilified by most of the commenters, one in particular, the infamous powayseller. It might have been the impetus for her to finally start her own blog?
Rob Dawg calmly offered, “I’ll buy you that $4 cup of coffee if you can find anything that isn’t off at least 10% from the peak this time next year.”
So I took the challenge, and mentioned three neighborhoods (Terramar, Olde Carlsbad, and La Costa Oaks – Davidson tract) that I thought could beat the odds. When we reviewed them a year later and put it to a vote, I came out slightly ahead.
Where do we stand now?
Let’s start in Olde Carlsbad – 92008
For those who know Olde Carlsbad, I think you’ll agree that it’s a mixed bag – many older, smaller SFRs interspersed with new or remodeled houses and estates, many with ocean views. Determining values is always a challenge around 92008, but you decide.
Here are the same-house sales that have closed in 92008 since June, 2008:
1295 Cynthia 3 br/2 ba, 1,400sf YB:1960 short sale
$615,000 10/05 $411,000 9/08 Difference = -33%
2728 Forest Park 4 br/3 ba, 2,248sf YB:1985 REO
$647,000 6/04 $435,000 8/08 Difference = -33%
1726 Forest Ave 3 br/2 ba, 1,900sf YB:1962 REO
$545,000 8/04 $535,000 7/08 Difference = -2%
(former owner pulled a $720K loan and did full remodel, then had medical prob)
3255 Monroe 4 br/2 ba, 2,124sf YB:1964 REO
$700,000 7/05 $575,000 6/08 Difference = -18%
2051 Laurie 4 br/2 ba 1,937sf YB:1960 flipper
$460,000 2/08 $616,500 7/08 Difference = +34%
(seller/agent did full remodel, probably made $20-40K after costs)
450 Anchor 3 br/2 ba 1,877sf YB:1982
$655,000 7/06 $650,000 6/08 Difference = -1%
(buyer exchanged into this year’s purchase, paid all-cash)
5111 Delaney 4 br/3 ba, 2,856sf YB: 2004
$885,000 8/06 $875,000 6/08 Difference = –1%
3912 Garfield 2 br/1 ba, 832sf YB:1940
$850,000 8/05 $853,000 6/08 Difference = 0
2168 Dickinson 5 br/4.5 ba, 3,043sf YB:2004
$758,000 5/04 $915,000 9/08 Difference = +21%
(new in 2004)
2178 Twain 5 br/4.5 ba 3,737sf YB:2004
$727,000 1/04 $1,030,000 6/08 Difference = +42%
(new in 2004)
155 Chinquapin 4 br/4 ba, 2,292 sf YB:1990
$1,200,000 2/04 $1,225,000 9/08 Difference = +2%
There were 79 sales closed since June 1st, and these eleven purchased since 2004. The remaining 68 who purchased in 2003 or earlier all sold for more than they paid.
Admittedly, this prediction and about four bucks will get you a cup of coffee today. However, if in a few years we look back and I was right, I’ll be happy to take the credit.
From a logical standpoint, there is no way these prices can be sustained – let’s face it, if you want to buy a decent house today you have to spend a million dollars – how many people can REALLY afford that?
But there are intangibles that are hard to assess. Let’s look at what they are and attempt to assign a value to them, because if we can, we can predict the future.
Let’s use santa monica’s number of 33%. In the last downturn, most everywhere in Southern California saw prices roll back about 33% between 1990 and 1995.
What about over-shoot? Aren’t buyers going to be so scared that prices will have to actually go down a little extra, before they have the guts to jump back in?
On June 9th we talked about ‘The Big Split – the Flight to Quality’ (see journal archives). We’ve seen it happen all year, and I don’t think it’s going to change – that the inferior properties are taking a bath, but the high-quality houses in great locations do a lot better.
Combine the Big Split with over-shoot, and it looks like this:
Inferior properties go down 40% to 50%
Superior properties go down 5% to 10%
Blended rate of decline of median sales price from peak = 33%.
This is where the real estate industrial complex is going to shoot ourselves in the foot – the median sales price will be submarined by the inferior properties. Where the MSP has been holding artificially high the last 12 months due to fewer sales in general, once the bottom falls out of the inferior homes, the MSP will drop like a rock.
The foreclosures are pouring in right now, and the bulk of them are the inferior properties on the low-end. The ones that were bought in the last 1-2 years with 100% financing are most susceptible – those homeowners have no skin in the game and are the least likely to find a way to save the house.
If you are a waiter or landscaper, the only way you can handle an additional pop in your monthly payment is if your parents help out, you add a lot of roommates, or you hit the lotto. True, there will be plenty on the upper-end in trouble too, but they are more likely to find a way out. People with more affluence have more resources available to them, and if they have a high-quality home, there are more buyers.
It’s all relative, but if this year is a snapshot of things to come, the low-end is going to be hit harder. That’s in direct contrast to my previous article on Feb 8th called ‘the big squish-down’. I thought for sure that the million-dollar market would cause all the trouble, but that hasn’t happened so far.
Three general reasons the high-quality properties will do better:
1. They’re older houses, owned by older people, with less debt
2. They have it so good, there’s no better place to go
3. Buyers are holding out for the good stuff.
Because of these three reasons, the supply-and-demand curve is much more healthy in the high-quality-home market.
A. If there are serious, meaningful changes in loan underwriting and/or elimination of currently available loan programs, then knock off another 10%. Not very likely in my opinion, but I’m probably in the minority of those reading this.
B. Major terrorist attack or earthquake, knock off a temporary 10%, but it’ll come back within 1-2 years. We were back in business within 3-6 months after 9/11.
C. Complete failure of pension/retirement systems, and healthcare cost. Even if you have your house paid off, if those two categories go nuts, you could run out of dough and have to sell your house to live. God help us all if it gets to this point. It is possible though, so it’s on the board.
Those are the big three negative intangibles, now for the positive:
A. Interest rates under 6% would help a lot, and I think they’re coming back. The recent boom was the hottest when rates were the lowest. It’s both a financial and a psychological benefit that helps get buyers off the fence.
B. Sales over the next 1-2 years will be determined by buyers who care more about buying the right house than the bubble. Whether they are ignorant about the bubble, or just don’t care about the bubble, it doesn’t matter. If the bubble talk doesn’t bother you, then you probably won’t insist on waiting, or driving the price down another 5-10%, before you buy. Because people need to live somewhere, there are reasons to buy that can supersede money.
C. Lower prices should help those who rent to be able to buy – both the first-timers and the bubble-sitters. Especially the bubble-sitters. I don’t think there are any previous homeowners that don’t want to own, they just don’t want to buy at these prices.
D. The OpenMLS would help alot. If it were easier to find good deals, we’d have more sales. If there were one centralized, super-duper website open to everyone, not only would it be easier to find deals, the novelty alone would spur activity. Realtor.com is an embarassment, and the realtor community deserves to be left behind if we can’t do better than that.
Those four intangibles could greatly temper any steep decline.
But who cares, all that matters is how you can take advantage, right?
ADVICE FOR SELLERS
1. If you know you’re moving in the next couple of years, see if you can move your plans up a bit.
2. You can’t move your house, but see if you can get it into a higher-quality bracket. Fix it up nice, that’s what buyers want.
3. Be more attached to getting out, than getting your price.
ADVICE FOR BUYERS
1. Set your goal at getting a high-quality house at 33% under peak prices. Who are they, and where do I find them?
A. Distressed sellers with both high loan balances and equity
B. Long-time owners who still think a half-million is a lot of money
C. Dumb listing agents you can take advantage of
2. Stay educated on the market, especially on recent sales. That education gives you confidence that you’re doing the right thing when making offers.
3. Be persistent, but patient. Be prepared to make 100 offers, and hopefully you’ll only have to make 5-10.
4. Know what you’re looking for, and keep looking! A good agent can help.
Mortgage rates moved up significantly last week. Will rates continue to rise? Expect mortgage rates to go up this week closer to 3.1%. Freddie Mac will release the 30-year fixed mortgage rate tomorrow morning. Stay tuned.
Jim the Realtor is legit - I interviewed three brokers; he said list price should be $100,000 higher than the other two brokers; listed it with him and had all cash (no financing) offer in two days, five day contingency period, closing in two weeks - and it closed at his recommended list price. I could not recommend anyone more than I recommend Jim the Realtor.
When we moved to San Diego in 2005 we rented a big house on Mt. Soledad (La Jolla) with 180 degree ocean views for the same payment as a mortgage on a dump in Chula Vista. Clearly something was wrong. Yet, the media was full of the usual happy-talk nonsense, so I was glad to find Jim's blog. I've followed his honest assessments and data since.
We decided to sell and move to AZ at Thanksgiving. Dec. 1st we met with Jim to sell our home. We closed today (29 days later). Jim orchestrated a feeding frenzy -- we had 25 showings in 2-1/2 days, multiple offers, and sold for well over asking price. I'd say he earned his commission! We have owned and sold homes in 5 different States always using experienced, productive, full-time realtors. Jim outshines them all.
You don't decide to sell and close 29 days later over Christmas (with COVID lockdown) without some miracles. Donna was amazing at performing lots of those miracles and ensuring that everything was done right and on time. They are a terrific team with a very responsive and professional network.
Where do we begin..2020 has been a year for everyone. When COVID hit and shut down both my husband and my businesses, we were left with a mortgage and very little income coming in. We were stressed, scared and felt stuck. We made the hard decision to sell our home and move out of state. We contacted the Klinges' and spent a good hour going over what we hoped we could accomplish. Jim and Donna came over with comps in hand and suggestions on improvements to get our house ready for the market. It was overwhelming to think about, but Donna was there and one step ahead in every scenario. Basically we just approved what they suggested and Donna handled literally everything. We placed our house on the market and within the first day we had multiple offers well above asking price! We couldn't believe it. We were overjoyed! Jim countered the offers to weed through them, and everyone came back with way more. It was amazing, and we are ?? sure it was because of the staging and repairs the Klinges suggested we do.
Due to unforeseen dishonesty from the buyers lender, we hit a big hurdle when trying to close. We had already moved out of state and were shocked when three days before closing the lender dropped a bombshell on the buyers and us. However, Jim and Donna handled it like veterans, not afraid to play hard ball and represent their clients. After a few phone calls with us, and several between Donna and the lender, they had a plan B-Z to make sure we were taken care of. In the end we closed with even more money than we ever thought possible and with very little work from us. The Klinges handled this entire "2020" worthy event with the utmost professionalism and did everything in their power to not only make this as smooth as possible for us, but we also walked away with more money from the sale of the house than we ever hoped for. After working with Jim and Donna, you don't ever use anyone else. They are hands down the best team to represent you in any scenario.
Working with Klinge Realty Group was a great experience! They are very responsive, professional and knowledgable about the real estate market! I would definitely recommend Klinge Realty Group.
Jim and Donna Klinge made the sale of our condo extraordinarily easy. They know the market and gave us sound advice backed by details and very considerable experience, reflected both in the initial pricing and subsequent negotiations. They work together as a team and are always available to talk. We had a few challenges with our property and they were able to coordinate the resolution to everything, including items that I would not think would ordinarily be their responsibility to handle. They made the whole process effortless on our part. They are folks with high integrity and we cannot recommend them highly enough.
Review for Member: Donna Klinge
I cannot believe there are no reviews of Donna yet, ugh!! She is the secret sauce of the Jim Klinge/Donna Klinge combo! I will touch on Jim here, but Donna is why I'm so totally loyal to these two (no offense to Jim :)).
I consider myself a rather savvy buyer/seller. I've bought/sold 7 times in about 15 years. On the buy side, Jim is the PERFECT combo of: completely digitally savvy (he will pull data all day long until you feel comfortable with your chosen house, area, school district, anticipated appreciation rate...anything!), he's super well respected and known in the area by other agents, an amazingly cool but strategic negotiator, is totally devoid of desperation for a sale/commission, and more.
Then once you get into contract phase, Donna literally handles every last and final detail in a concierge-like manner -- totally shielding you from the daily back and forth, noodling and annoyances of the buyer's requests. She solves it ALL; it's miraculous what that woman accomplishes over and above what is even expected in a buy/sell transaction.
On the sell side, Jim and Donna do the same, but even moreso. Donna in particular truly takes everything off your plate: she'll manage getting the house painted, the carpets replaced, she'll go on site (as she Jim both did for me when selling our rental properties) to work with the renters and make sure the house is ready to show -- freeing me to have to take time off of work to do so. They work with A+ integrity, too, so you know you are serving all parties fairly and lawfully throughout.
A home purchase/sale is the most considered you'll ever make. HIRE A SAVVY AGENT, not a friend!, and get what you need out of the transaction. Jim and Donna are our agents for life.
Jim and Donna Klinge are by far the most professional, personable and responsive realtors I have ever worked with. They provide VIP concierge level service in every area of the process of selling your home. My home was marketed so successfully that we received an offer the day after our first and only open house. Thanks to Jim's pricing and negotiating, our house is now the highest sold in our community. Jim's vast experience means he has worked with several realtors and knows the market all over north county. Donna is AMAZING in processing everything in the transaction. She scheduled trades people to work on the house in preparation for the sale as well as the repairs needed before closing. She communicated clearly every step of the way about what would be happening. She took the weight off my shoulders for the whole process. I will always use Jim and Donna for my future real estate needs and I whole heartedly recommend them to anyone buying or selling a home.
Jim and the team at Klinge Reality are without a doubt the best in the business! Not only was Jim helpful and extremely knowledgeable, he was patient and determined to help me find my first home. Jim and his team have been in the business for many years, and it shows. Jim is a wealth of knowledge and was my biggest proponent despite the temperature of the competitive market. I ended up getting the perfect property in my dream neighborhood all thanks to Jim. From the day my offer was accepted, Donna was a real lifesaver. She was extremely helpful, responsive, and knowledgeable when it came to every minute detail, and held my hand through the process. As a first time home buyer I had no idea what the process would entail, but Donna curtailed every concern I came across and made the escrow process feel seamless. Jim and Donna provided me the best home buying experience, and I am very grateful for all they did for me. It was truly a pleasure to work with Jim and Donna and I am already looking forward to the next time we work together!
Review for Member: Richard Morgan
Richard is an amazing realtor! He has high integrity and genuinely cares about his clients and their needs. Richard paid close attention to what I was seeking in a home and was very patient in our search to find it. I would highly recommend Richard and will use him for future transactions. Truly a different kind of realtor experience!
Could not be happier with my experience with Jim and his team. He helped me sell a very unique and challenging property. Throughout the entire process he was always available, honest, transparent, trustworthy, and always put my interests as a seller first. A (rare) true professional! During close of escrow Jim went above and beyond to complete the deal. It would not have been possible without his experience, fantastic team, and pure dedication. Highly recommended!
Thanks Jim and Donna Klinge!