The 679-unit Vantage Point complex in downtown San Diego had been taking $25,000 deposits since 2004, but could only generate a couple of hundred buyers – not enough to qualify for Fannie/Freddie financing (needed 70% pre-sold).
The builder, to their credit, refunded all of the deposits, and is starting over by re-structing the complex into six sub-divisions – some to rent, some to sell.
Today they conducted a broker’s open house from 5-8pm.
I edited out the video’s introduction where I mentioned that on the MLS there have been 377 condos that have closed downtown, 2009 year-to-date, at an average of $411/sf.
But 2/3 of those were under $500,000, and averaging $340/sf.
If the builder offers these condos priced in the low-$300s per sf, and throws an all-out party for realtors, it’ll be a good sign that they get it about how tough the market is, and might have a chance to move some units.
If they want $400/sf or higher, and are offering cheeze and crackers, it’ll be a long road home.
Here is the youtube video tour:
Jim,
Another great video. Thanks for deciding to keep making them.
but those crackers! wow, they looked like some high end imported stuff. aren’t imported crackers worth at least an extra $50 sq/ft?
Geez, and I thought they were screwed *before* I saw the video.
My wild-ass guess-they’ll sell only one of the six sub-divisions and rent out the other 5/6ths of the building, and it’ll take over a year to do even that, at steep discounts. Twenty years from now, half the building will have section eight tenants in it, twenty percent will be vacant, and almost no owner/occupiers.
Silly floorplan, although you could stick a desk in that corner of the bedroom I suppose, so you get a view of the Merrill Lynch building (which I imagine will eventually be rebranded as BoA, who bought them (along with the taxpayer)) and a parking garage when you sit at your computer.
you shoulda rolled up in the REO Speedwagon, to the valet!
@osidebuyer, showing up in The REO Speedwagon! Now that would have been hilarious! “Rumble! Rumble! AHOOOOOOGAH!!!” 😀
Honestly, my one bedroom apartment in downtown Montreal is way roomier than that. What kind of drugs were the architects taking when they laid out the floor plan?
Anyway. Cheese and crackers spotted. ABORT!!! ABORT!!! 🙂
At $400-500 /sq ft, you’d at least expect to get ‘cheeze’ spelled with an ‘s’. That Cracker Barrel Colbyjack ain’t cuttin’ it.
Awww. you ate the cupcake! We wanted to see the cupcake!
Hey Francois, did you know that both the developer and architect are Canadian? Seriously.
This project epitomizes the worst in high rise residential design. Long double loaded hallways, long elevator rides, way too small of a space for “urban living”, basically greed drove the design.
As a former downtown resident there are some great places downtown like walk-ups or “point towers”, (not “pointe” as in vantage pointe). Point towers have 4-6 units per floor and no hallways. Many cities only allow point towers and not monsters like VP.
Nice vid Jim.
When I saw the cheese and cracker plate, I almost fell out of my chair laughing!
Mozart, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit. We have a lot of tower developers up here, too many of them with a load of sleazebag sales and building tactics up their sleeves. And I’m amazed how many people get suckered into these scams.
The CBC’s television show Marketplace did a piece about the “Condo Crunch” last year. Enjoy the translations of the contractual terms. http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/condo_crunch
Give me free cheese!!!!!!!!!Where are all the naked women and booze to get you in the mood to buy?
This place has all the charm of an economy business hotel without maid or room service.
I love the big LEASE sign hanging down one of the walls out by the pool.
cheeze = krab
So fake-looking, and fake-tasting, that you really can’t spell it the same.
Why would anyone want to live in a highrise in San Diego??????? It’s not like NYC where there are actually alot of jobs there. You can buy a house in Mission Hills and be just as close for the same bucks. WHY????
I dunt gett et?
These would be Perfect for some greedy dentist. Just tell them if they Buy 10 they get 1 Free. Buy 20 get 3 Free. Done. Jim, you’re a classic! and Thanks! lol. John the Peddler
The thing that shocks me is that developers — people IN THE BUSINESS — don’t understand the reality of the situation in front of them. It’s as if they’re repeating “it is still 2006 to themselves over and over again.
They greeted us with gifts upon arrival, and included copies of the ten floor plans, and a complicated price list.
I think the featured floor plan is the H-1, which is the 2 br/2 ba, 881sf model, priced between $389,000 and $452,000 for floors 2-9.
$441/sf to $513/sf, with no water view.
But they did add that you get a 78sf balcony.
The cheese and crackers shot was priceless!
I love your attitude! It is nice to laugh during these crazy real estate times!
A Realtor® saying this is a great place to rent! Almost fell off my Herman Aeron chair. Real Realtors® know how to serve shrimp and Santa Barbara wines and provide real bands. Contrarywise salesmen pumping options on volatile commodities serve cheeze whiz to muzak.
I would be their worst tenant. Staring at the ML sign every day would end badly. Something about sniper scopes and high velocity rifles.
It’s also a huge quake risk, I could see low 200’s.
A while back in land far far away I went a looking at condos. I think they’re a fad, but back then the price was 500k. And I’d better buy now as 99.999 of the building was sold.
Now that same place has them from 250k. They’re nicer than this one in the vid, quieter too.
Do you know the premium for that same unit on the 26th floor? You at least sorta get a view there, although I’m now guessing we are at $600/sq ft or more. Seesh.
They aren’t going to sell any of these at these prices. Big ol’ goose egg.
JimB-Modern highrises are actually quite safe in earthquakes.
They only list two models that go as high as the 26th floor, the S1 and the S2.
They are a roomy 926sf, and range from $455,000 to $605,000 – so I’d guess the 26th floor view premium is at least $100,000?
The view isn’t that good.
P.S. The HOA fee is estimated to be $490 to $600
“Modern highrises are actually quite safe in earthquakes.” – Geotpf
Slight correction. They are very safe in earthquakes but uninhabitable after an earthquake.
Is there a view premium?
This perfectly simple video makes the “pointe” – what “vantage”?
881 sq ft? They must be joking. Looks more like its below 700 sq ft (layout almost looks like it will fit in a 25ft by 25ft square). I don’t know why they tried to do a 2 br layout this way. It also looks like the sheet taped to the window (time index 2.29) showed that it was 2br/1ba, if you can call those bedrooms. The layout would have been better if the two bedrooms were one and the bathroom was at the back of that bedroom, then place the kitchen where the bathroom used to be, making the living room/kitchen space deeper.
This building’s architecture definitely has a “institutional” flair and no imagination. The developers may have a better chance of selling these “rabbit hutches” by offering them as “office condominiums”. The city probably would grant a zoning/use change to avoid having a foreclosed concrete monstrocity on their hands.
It’s a tough location in general. Not much around to walk to which is one of the big advantages to downtown living. Heck once Twiggs changed to that new “Italian” place on Cortez Hill you can’t even get a decent small bite to eat anymore. Why pay all that HOA and price per square foot for a bedroom community?
Believe it or not we still have $400 to $500sq pricing up here in Portland as well…
Jim or anyone:
How do they calculate footage on the high rise condo? Does it include share of the common area?
It doesn’t include common areas, but it usually includes all of the outside walls and half of common walls. That is, it’s not 881 usable square feet.
Agreed, those felt like the square footage was 700-ish.
I like the classic Japanese system of house measurement: how many tatami mats you could fit inside the house. Not all the rooms use tatami mats, but I assume in measuring those rooms you are only measuring usable space.
These days I’m looking for a house of at least 70 tsubos.
…And, why aren’t copies of the ten floor plans, and a simple price list available at their website?
Colossal waste of time & resources printing up pass out (throw-away) materials. Providing a few well developed interactive computer kiosks around the lobby, for show time, would have been the ticket. Slick, cool, classy, & green (even).
If they gave out awards for worst in catagory, real estate development website, VP would win hands down.
Geez, and I’m not even in the marketing biz. Someone ought to hire me.
I felt like a rat in a maze as you walked through that floor plan.
Even if you could get a desk into that one area you pointed out, it looks like you’d have a wall about 1 foot away from your head on each side. Yikes.
My old apartment in Riverside was 750ish square feet (taped off by me). I paid $675 a month. I can’t imagine paying $600k (plus a monthly $500 HOA fee) for the same sized space (except maybe in Manhattan).
well, they got good value out of their open house because you featured it warts and all so they’ll need less staff to process the lookie-loos. It tells me they are even less further along than I thought they were and their pricing is every bit as delusional as I thought it would be. I some how expected better pricing and better service/readiness – information friendliness – stuff like that.
IF you really want to buy a condo down here you need to get to the library and look at the seismic hazard maps. They very thoughtfully built horton plaza, and the main police station on the big active fault. If there is one place I do not want to be during a 6 or bigger earthquake in down town, it is in horton plaza – you likely can’t get out – it’s hard enough to get out before the few stair cases start collapsing.
Now before you start believing that twaddle about how there aren’t any quakes in San Diego, how do you think Mt Soledad got to be so high, and why do you think there is so much active slumping on its slopes? They even tell the tourists who visit Old Town how the original settlement got leveled by a big earthquake
I’d rather buy in UTC for half the price and more square footage. The walls are depressing, the view of the brakes place – oh yeah, I’m just mad keen to pay 400K for that. Its too depressing a building to even think abut renting there.
Jim, Thanks again for the information. Keep the videos coming. How much extra for parking spaces? With a $500-600 HOA, even $300/ft is too high. That HOA will be $900 in less than 5 years…
@François Caron,
great video posted above about what to watch out for in condos, especially speculative unbuilt ones
thanks!
We went away for a weekend a couple of months ago and the hotel management fed us better than that just because they didn’t have our room ready on time…
I remember some of these downtown condos they built in San Jose recently. At the time I had an office downtown and we got the downtown newsletter. One of the issues featured the condo development company proudly stating they only had a few units left and they expected to sell out any day now.
I sold my business in 9/2007, so it must have been early ’07 when I read that. Drove past it the day before I packed up and headed down here, and had to chuckle when I saw the big “FOR SALE” sign still on it 2 years later.
Whoops.
-Erica
P.S. Another condo development just south of San Jose suddenly turned their “FOR SALE” sign into a “FOR LEASE” sign basically overnight. These will likely have the same fate. Those prices wouldn’t even fly in San Jose, which has a much higher median income.
Erica, this happens in SD a lot too. They usually don’t even put up fine print that says “We sold out of phase X” meaning they have 200+ units but they sold 20 out of 20 they put up in a batch.
This happens more often than not with new construction in SD, like with all the developments in Pacific Highlands and Del Sur. Whatever they can get away with..
“400-500 sf and you saw the cheese…” Jtr
This may be your funniest line yet, Jim. My
keyboard is a mess…
“P.S. The HOA fee is estimated to be $490 to $600”
OK, now I’ve just lost it! I vote this to be my
favorite JtR video ever! Keep ’em comin’ Jim!
“400-500 sf and you saw the cheese…” Jtr
This may be your funniest line yet, Jim. My
keyboard is a mess…
“P.S. The HOA fee is estimated to be $490 to $600”
OK, now I’ve just lost it! They’re delusional. Ihis is my favorite JtR video ever! Keep ’em comin’ Jim…
Here we go………knife catchers!!!!!!!
$500/sf plus monster HOAs and they couldn’t even run down to Trader Joe’s for decent snacks. Sad.
Literally spit out my coffee on the cheese shot! 🙂
This was way too funny, Jim!
Oops, sorry for the double post! The first one never showed up, so I typed it again.
This post is for Genius…
Regarding your post the other day, looking for a rental in Encinitas, etc.
We just drove by a rental yesterday, I believe on Delage, or maybe Oakbranch — I’m not exactly sure. It was a 3/2 for $2,300, IIRC. Looked pretty decent from the front, but backs up to El Camino Real. Near Avenida de las Adelsas and ECR intersection in Encinitas.
Just drive around the general area, and you’ll see quite a few rentals available. We were surprised to see so many.
Good luck!
Once again, CR is running your video and adding some insight into the condo mess…
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/07/jim-realtor-on-high-rise-condo-project.html
In March, Fannie Mae said it would no longer guarantee mortgages on condos in buildings where fewer than 70% of the units have been sold, up from 51%. Fannie Mae also won’t purchase mortgages in buildings where 15% of owners are delinquent on condo association dues or where one owner has more than 10% of units, which the firm sees as signals that a building could run into financial trouble. Freddie Mac will implement similar policies next month.
…
Fannie Mae officials say the new rules haven’t been as taxing as some claim. The mortgage company said the 70% rule doesn’t apply to loan applications submitted through an underwriting program used by major lenders, and that hundreds of projects submitted through that program since March 1 have been approved even though their sales levels are below 70%. Developers are also able to apply for exemptions to the new policies for loans that are manually underwritten.
…
Fannie and Freddie have also boosted fees on mortgages for condos. Buyers without a minimum 25% down payment have to pay closing-cost fees equal to 0.75% of their loan, regardless of their credit score, under new rules that took effect in April. Fannie has said it will drop that fee in August for cooperative apartments and detached condos.
We bought at Electra (a great Bosa building)for $474 square foot. . .bigger pool, great waterfront view/location. Bosa now has a few units for sale under what we paid in April. . .and they are dealing. Why would anyone buy at those prices at Vantage – a view of the tire store, no retail, and a lonely walk at night to go to Gaslamp or anyplace. . .might as well just wait for the bankruptcy sale.